Violent crime spiralling out of control since 1994 ? Well no...I think you mean decreasing by 28.8%. I think you will find the massive rise in crime happened before the A.N.C took over. If you were formulating a scientific conclusion from this data you'd have to conclude that crime was spiralling out of control UNTIL the A.N.C took over and then steadily decreased in direct correlation to it coming into power.
72 comments:
official stats? from where? anybody can draw a graph...
From the South Africa police service and it's international watchdogs.
Amazing how everyone screams "50 murders a day"..and when you show them from the very same stats they been screaming about that it's decreased from 1994 ...then suddenly they want to queery it.
It's a fact , so what's the problem ? Do you want it to increase or something ?
do you have a link to the source? where on the SAPS website can one see this info, and who are the "international watchdogs"?
why do you take so much issue? especially since you've got nothing to hide.
it's not a "fact" simply because you say so.
South African murder rate is like 6th worse out of countries with reliable reporting. But it's going down all the time. I don't accredit this to the A.N.C or the police as much as to the economy.....
This is the irony...if you want to be sure crime increases in South Africa again then you must keep this bullshit scaremongering up...that will chase away investment and tourists and the economy will suffer. So if you're are a middle classed person in South Africa you should know that you're real enemies are the people on websites such as S.A.S who will do and say anything to ensure this happens and bullshit is constantly spread around about South Africa.
and if you believe the cooked stats from the SAPS, which is a government organsation, then you are gullible.
who defines "reliable reporting"? ha ha hahaha
and why are you so obsessed with SAS? they're wankers.
Why not just to their website ? Here is the link from 2001 - present ....
http://www.saps.gov.za/statistics/reports/crimestats/2008/march_april_2001_2008/catagory/murder.pdf
I'm not saying anything controversial. The only controversial thing is that most people think crime has increased. The perception does not equate with the reality. Let's put this myth to bed of "increases" violent crime in South Africa once and for all. We get 38 murders per 100 000 people here now and it was close to 50 in 2001. That's a STEEP decrease.
attempted murder is down a HUGE amount too..
http://www.saps.gov.za/statistics/reports/crimestats/2008/march_april_2001_2008/catagory/att_murder.pdf
And fi you're wondering..the decreases are even more dramatic if you take it back to 1994.
By the way anyone telling you they have reliable statistics before 1994 is talking out of their ass. Reliable and official stats only started in those years. There is no reliable record of pre 1994 stats and black murder was routinely underreported when the police were white men in the old South Africa and was always high and likely higher during apartheid.
By the way anyone telling you they have reliable statistics before 1994 is talking out of their ass. Reliable and official stats only started in those years. There is no reliable record of pre 1994 stats and black murder was routinely underreported when the police were white men in the old South Africa and was always high and likely higher during apartheid.
and that crime stats in 2008 are suddenly reliable? hahahahaha
Why would they have any unique incentive to lie ? You don't think a great percentage of top cops are not whiteys who would love the chance to expose anything like that ? Not to mention the life insuarance agencies , hospitals and various orginisation whose staticians work closely with these figures ? Who would know better then ? Who should we trust ? Some expat asshole who pulls his estimates out of his ass ?
You know in the late 70's the political correct forces that be allowed radical femnists to pretty much have their way. Not happy that their agenda was prioritised enough feminists came up with all sorts of ridiculous statistics still being used today. 1 out of 3 women is raped and the likes. Take a look at how they defined rape....."Sleeping with a man when drunk (even consentually)" .."Having sex with yor husband consentually but not being entirely in the mood" etc....
The point is that it's healthy to be skeptical of orginisations...but also be skeptical of bitter , racists and their agenda to exageratte and overstate the problems in a country they don't even live in.
oh, well then our latest stats MUST be reliable then.
bullshit.
they're very unreliable. they come from the government...
why do you keep bringing in race? i've not it once. you're obsessed.
The idea that The A.N.C has an agenda to cover up murder....but the pre 1994 government...oh no..great guys ! honest chaps...no incentive to lie about black murder to the rest of the world....oh how they gave black people such wonderful lives !
Fucking bullshit. Spare me.
However fudged our stats are now they could only have been worse before. I've never seen one piece of evidence , whistle blowing , counter argument ,statistic or anything of the like to suggest any reason to not trust the south african police stats. As I said before they were good enough for you when they showed crime gettign worse....now that they show it getting better...?? LIES !!! LIES !!!
We can all agree that having a murder rate of 38/100 000 is nothing to be proud of....let's focus on that ...decreasing crime. These asshats who run around claiming its worse are doing nothing but
a) lying
b) chasing away 22 million tourist since 2000 alone
c) chasing away foriegn investment
The way to decrease crime is to increase the economy.....do you want the country to fail or to thrive ? Pick a fucking side. You can't want it to thrive and secretly sabotage it with bullshit hyperbole.
"Why would they have any unique incentive to lie ?"
ask julius malema or jacob zuma. or thabo mbeki. or the scorpions. or...
No....let's take off the tin hats. Show me a piece of evidence to justify not believing the stats that is has decreased. These stats are made up of hospital death certificates and other means (which are autited by various agencies across the country and world including greedy fucking insurance companies) and it would be easily exposed if they were lying. not to mention my previous point about their still being plenty of black hating afrikaaners in the top levels of police who would love to expose anything of that nature if it was going on.
rooster, youre a white kid who never grew up in the townships. why don't you stop putting your precious stats on a gold throne and go into your nearest township and ask them if crime is better or worse today, than anytime before 2008.
why don't you go into the cape flats and ask the average woman if rape in her neighbourhood has increased. ask her if her children are safer today than anytime before. ask her if she's safer today than before 2008.
"and it would be easily exposed if they were lying."
hahahahaha, it's being exposed all the time...
Where is it being exposed ? Show me one credible source that exposes that they are delibrately undereporting crime. Are some crimes underreported ? Who knows ? How could they claim to know about them if they are not reported ? I call bullshit. I've had this site for over 3 months now and no one has been able to demonstrate even slightly that violent crime has increased since 1994. Why ? IT HASN'T YOU ASSHOLES !
To other anon. ..where I live is of no relevence. Actually black people have always had cause to complain about crime...just nobody was listening pre 1994....now the same assholes whites who left because of racism want to tell us they are so concerned with the mythical "rising" crime rate in the townships ? Crap , crap ...and more crap.
Sure some middle classed black people feed into the fera machine of nonsense and bullshit that is the South African media ...and might share the perception of black crime ...but for the great huge disproportionate majority the people making ridiculous claims about "worsening crime" are white people...and the expats..the most vocal of whom don't even live in the fucking country.
If a poor person in the township were to say " Hey , this country is dangerous" ...I'd concur ....it is dangerous if you live in the poorest areas (well...relatively speaking to the developed world.....in realityt your chances of getting murdered are still about 10 times less than dying in a car crash).....but I don't want to hear it from white assholes who are so out of touch with reality and whose soul purpose of bringing this up is some idiotic attempt to try and show that black people have messed up the country (despite all the hard evidence to the contrary).
Show me one credible source
- hahahaha! in the words of rooster, don't be lazy - go look yourself.
"Actually black people have always had cause to complain about crime"
how would you possibly know? you seem to know everything...
I've provided a statistic and you've said "I don't believe it" then refused to post any form of evidence or reason as to why not. I don't see really want response you want other than me to say...er...ok then. You've not discredited my statistic in any way , shape or form and therefore it remains valid.
How do I know ? Maybe because crime (as through out the world) has always been a problem in poor areas where poeople have nthing to loose/are struggling to survive. Maybe because if you ask anyone they will tell you ? Maybe because it's a fact ?
i've asked you to pause with your precious stats that you hold so dearly and close to your heart. i've challenged you to go into the townships and ask the questions i set up.
you made a sweeping racist statement that blacks have always had a cause to complain. well, my personal experience debunks that and shows what you say to be rubbish.
i propose that we all ignore government "stats", since they're bullshit anyway. i say we all ask people on the ground. that's what my community is doing. and their findings agree with me.
more communities should do this.
"always been a problem in poor areas where poeople have nthing to loose/are struggling to survive"
then explain to me why crime in SA is lower than than most 3rd world countries. india has the most poverty anywhere.
Other socio economic factors come into it but anyway your premise is wrong. If other third world countries had stats as reliable as ours (or indeed they even have any at all) then I am sure that South Africa would slide in somewhere around the middle or upper bottom. We do have the immense wealth disparity which is a factor behind crime. We also have a big drinking culture. It's complicated ...but whatever reason it is ...it's not just "random" or "genetic" or whatever you would imply.
I reject your proposal. People live in bubbles and I can point out hundreds of South Africans who have never even been close to crime , but have the perception that it has gotten worse. Without facts and stats to back us up we become victims to the baseless agendas and bullshit of others. Sorry....we need data, stats and figures in order to test the hypothesis of others to be sure they aren't trying to sell us snake oil / or have an agenda.
Certainly the subjective idea in South Africa is that crime has gotten worse when in fact all facts prove it has gotten better (most people are so uninformed that they think the stats prove it has gotten worse , but this is simply not the case). This is the whole fucking problem...if people knew the truth they would be more skeptical everytime they come across some negative scaremongering.
of course you'd reject my proposal. you're scared of the results. then, if the results favour my view, you'll cry "oh but it's perception based on nothing"
so keep your precious stats provided by your precious government.
i'm not going to argue with you. i have nothing to prove to you. i know the facts in my community. and that's all that matters. what you say on some blog has no effect on the truth.
Anon @ 1.23
"why don't you go into the cape flats and ask the average woman if rape in her neighbourhood has increased. ask her if her children are safer today than anytime before. ask her if she's safer today than before 2008."
Go to
http://www.bbc.co.uk/newsa/n5ctrl/progs/08/panorama/bb/wm/video/11feb_bb.asx
The official crime statistics can and are in fact compared and evaluated against other reliable sources.
It is beleived that there is an element of under-reporting on the official crime figures by the SAPS and the validity of this claim is based on the fact that these other sources are finding crime figues that correlate quite closely with one another.
Check out: -
Department of Home Affairs
Medical Research Council
Interpol
Crime Information Analysis Centre
Institute for Security Studies
Rooster says
"By the way anyone telling you they have reliable statistics before 1994 is talking out of their ass. Reliable and official stats only started in those years. There is no reliable record of pre 1994 stats"
Not true.
The University of Cape Town’s Government Library has original source documents of the crime statistics prior to 1994. These however are not readily available and special approval has to be applied for to view these documents
These documents include official police reports dating back to 1950 and contain statistics on reported crime and all convictions of crime.
The issue is not that they don't have stats...the issue is that the stats pre 94 were clearly in the hands of a government well known for lying and engaging in propoganda about the supposive quality of life in the lack community. Also do you really think when there wss crime committed something resembling even close to a majority of people would run to the white enemy overlords for help ? Get real.
The S.A.P.S crime stats related closely to the others strengthening their validity not refuting them.
You won't find one murder stat based on objective information that shows South Afrian murder increasing since 1994.
It is beleived that there is an element of under-reporting on the official crime figures by the SAPS and the validity of this claim is based on the fact that these other sources are finding crime figues that correlate quite closely with one another.
But do not correlate to the official SAPS stats.
anon at 4:24 : And I once saw a big ape like man in a snowy field in the himalayas. Give me something tangible.
Do any of those so called "studies" suggest crime has risen ?
The issue is not that they don't have stats...the issue is that the stats pre 94 were clearly in the hands of a government well known for lying and engaging in propoganda..............
And what makes you think that this or any other government would'nt lie or engage in propaganda.
Again its a two way street. This argument can be held both ways.
Yes. They claim the figures are under reported and non-reported.
EG if it doesnt have a case number / the case documets get lost etc then it doesn't get reported in the stats.
Ive given you the sources: -
Department of Home Affairs
Medical Research Council
Interpol
Crime Information Analysis Centre
Institute for Security Studies
Regardless...the fact remains there is no objectively produced statistic out there that can deny or refute that the murder has decreased in South Africa since 1994. Why then would anyone repeat over and over that not only has it increased by (as S.A.S would have you believe) . It's "sky rocketing". Would you at least admit that "yes, S.A.s are totally full of shit".
Tangible
http://www.frontline.org.za/articles/murder_southafrica.doc
Every country in the world underreports to some extent for whatever reasons (casses lost in the beurocratic process etc) ...you're talking about statistical anomolies expected in any large scale statistics ...don't misrepresent it as a conspiracy. Also the stats in 1994 would by your logic be even more undereported than 2008 (as this is when they first started taking stats and would have experienced the most "ghosts in the machine") ...it strengthens the case for lower crime if anything.
I can't link through to your article. But whatever validity you think it has is greatly discreditted by the fact that it seems to come from a right wing christian extremist perspective. right wing extremist christians and science mix tigether about as well as water and oil.
I found one on that article ...the "last year" it's talking about....I can't be sure , but judging by the stats that's is sometimes before 2001 (we haven't had over 20 000 murders a year since that year ..we now have about 18000). Did you conventiently forget to mention that fact ?
Once again..murder had decreased by 28.8% since 1994.
The article goes on to make a mockery of measures tourists should take in south Africa. South Africa has a very good tourist safety record..better than Australia , The carribean , Thailand....so obviously they are doing something right.
The article also sees the freedom of information act and the fact that South Africans could watch pornography as "giving everyone a manuel for rape" ...jesus you fuckers are real fascists !
If Jesus christ would in the slightest allign himself with the types of you lot (right wing christians extremists) then he truly is on intolerable cunt and I want nothing to do with him.
I am in agreement that there is no no objectively produced statistic out there that can deny or refute that the murder rate has decreased or increased in South Africa since 1994. I think its all a game of smoke and mirrors.
"Why then would anyone repeat over and over that not only has it increased it has "sky rocketed".
Because a persons perceived and real experience is their reality.
Just because a person is paranoid doesn't mean that someone isn't watching them.
As for SAS? I find some of their reliably sourced articles informative and they are probably factually correct. However I do think that the commentary is too right wing for me.
No , I think you can deny that it has increased. And there are various objective statistics that can refute it has increased.
If you find S.A.S reliable ? They hardly ever use a reliable stastic , never back up their frequent claims , deal 99% in ad hom attacks, believe in things like "uhuru"...when the freakish time they do use some acurate information they always take it out of context to support some flawed logical and ignorance. That site is a joke man....at least this site doesn't present itself to be the vestige of truth....
I wonder which side Penn and Teller would sit on this fence. Clearly they'd be calling "bsullshit" on S.A.S.
On the issue of experience and reality.
15 Years ago: -
I didn't know anybody who had been a victim of a violent crime
I didn't know of anybody who knew somebody who had been a victim of a violent crime.
Today: -
I personally know 1 person who was murdered in what should have been a petty robbery.
I personally know 4 others that have been severely beaten (Attempted murder) in robberies / hijacking
I personally know one girl who has been repeatedly raped by a gang.
I have lost count of the number of people that I know who personally know others that have met similar fates.
The fact is that this has been my experience and therefore it is my reality.
Therefore my perception based on my experience is that the level of violent crime has dramatically increased.
Now if you take that experience and multiply by "x" (x being the number of people who have shared similar experiences), apply the theory of the 6 degrees of seperation then you get a society that have the same perception, and that society's perception becomes their reality.
Real or not, you will never convince them otherwise.
Just as aside to this, you mentioned the SAS bunch.
Why don't you as a counter to their format start posting genuine (i.e. from reliable sources, with links to the original source) good news stories.
I feel your goal will certainly be better served in this way.
If you find S.A.S reliable ? They hardly ever use a reliable stastic , never back up their frequent claims , deal 99% in ad hom attacks, believe in things like "uhuru"...when the freakish time they do use some acurate information they always take it out of context to support some flawed logical and ignorance. That site is a joke man....at least this site doesn't present itself to be the vestige of truth....
Yes and I agreed with that.
Their opinionated commentary is rubbish.
Howver many articles posted there have links back to the original source, and these are often informative and factual.
What a surprise to find someone who has an experience of knowing someone who knew someone who was murdered on a site about S.a crime. Listen...every country has victims of murder. What is unique to White South Afrians if for them to think it's unique to their country and blame it on the government.
I know someone who was murdered (it was by his wife and they were not born in the country). I don't falsely connect this to mean their is some conspiracy on it. If you go around the net I assure you the masses of people you don't hear from don't know have any experience of knowing someone close to them murdered. That's a fact.
Did you know that of the 18 000 murders a yar , only 500 of them are a result of housebreaking , hijacking and armed robbery(the ones that typically the media implies are widespread)?
Maybe crime has increased for some white people who no longer enjoy a huge militiary and policeforce to protect them. It's gotten better for everyone else though and they still are the leats affected by it. In fact the middle class murder rate is extremely nominal in South Africa. It's the poor getting snuffed off in drunken infighting and the likes.
I have no problem admitting south Africa has a crime problem...but let's just present it in the reality in which it exists without resorting to hyperbole and scaremongering.
"What a surprise to find someone who has an experience of knowing someone who knew someone who was murdered on a site about S.a crime."
You missed the point.
15 years ago I didn't personally know anybody who had been a victim of a violent crime.
Today I personally know of 6.
The emphasis here is "personally"
Hence the perception of what is reality.
"Listen...every country has victims of murder."
Yes but not many countries have a murder rate as high as SA.
"What is unique to White South Afrians if for them to think it's unique to their country and blame it on the government."
Its not unique. I think we can agree on this. It is however South Africans living in SA that are having to deal with the perceived reality that crime is out of control and the fact that their murder rate is amongst the highest in the world. Thats a very stressful existence and can be a very pervasive state of being.
Who are the SA public required to blame for high crime levels if not the government?
"Did you know that of the 18 000 murders a yar , only 500 of them are a result of housebreaking , hijacking and armed robbery(the ones that typically the media implies are widespread)?"
Where did you get those figures? Source please.
"I have no problem admitting south Africa has a crime problem"
Agreed SA has a crime problem.
"...but let's just present it in the reality in which it exists without resorting to hyperbole and scaremongering."
Who's reality. Yours? Mine? Zumas's? Society's?
Don't discount the 6 degrees of seperation. That is society.
The 500 comes again from the only reliable source of crime statistics (ie the ones who have the figures of what's being reported)...those released by the south African police.
The mass of murder in South Africa is over interpersonal disputes and happens while drunk in the form of knife fighting/gun violence.
You make a good point about the 6 degrees of seperation. In a small town in South Africa the chances are high of you knowing someone who knows someone that has been struck by lightning. I do.
18000 murders per year is scaremongering in itself.
SA's 40 murders per 100000, when compared to Canada's 1.85 is enough to warrant scaremongering of its own, without anyone saying a word.
while 40 in 100000 seems low, statistically, 1.85 is super safe. that is, you're 21 times more likely to be murdered in SA, than in Canada.
and when that stat is a family member who was enjoying a braai with friends, this entire conversation becomes unimportant.
because i know many who would choose a home that is 21 times safer than their current home.
38 murders per 100 000 is a lot. And yes you'd be safer in Canada (and dare I say more bored , depressed with a lower quality of life). Canada is an extreme though and compared to most countries you will be emmigrating to you'd find much higher murder rates than Canada.
You're better off comparing apples with apples. In the united states the crime rate in Washington Dc is the same as South Africa. The carribean islands are higher as a whole. Would you avoid living in such places because of crime ? Apply the same rationale.
Now when you are really realistic you will admit as a middle classed South African you're in the lowest risk group. The crime rate for you is much lower than 38/100 000. For whites it's about 8/100 000 in fact as they represent 10 percent of the population and are victims of only 2% of the violent crimes.
Then again if you're not a farmer then it's even lower for you as a white South Africa. This makes up almost a third of the white murders in South Africans if this statistic that 1600 farmers have been murdered since 1994 is true. The people who throw that statistic around are always right wing racists so it's difficult to know how accurate it is.....
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_homicide_rate
By the way , South Africa has now slipped down to 9th highest murder rate (of countries that have statistics ...most of africa does not). How many guesses until S.A.S stops saying "highest" ?
You're better off comparing apples with apples
- I can compare with whatever country I like, and all countries with stats are "apples". You keep banging the same old drum about the carribeans. Who the fuck emigrates there anyway? No one gives a shit about a bunch of islands somewhere in the ocean.
And would you stop bringin race into it? You're obsessed. I'm not even fucking white. I'm talking about country versus country - not farmer vs farmer.
You can't be that stupid.
Canada is 21 times safer than SA. Fact. I know many ppl who live there, and they say their quality of life is the best they've ever experienced. I have coloured friends who have emigrated to the US, and they all say that their quality of life is the best they've ever experienced.
It's all about perception.
Canada is 20 times safer than SA. The UK slightly less. Japan is close to 40 times safer. Australia and NZ are slightly less than 20 times safer.
I know 3 girls who have been raped. Their chances might have been better in one of the above countries. I have a friend who emigrated to New Zealand. She's been there 6 years and has never experienced any form of crime. When she lived in Durban, she was hijacked and mugged in a space of 1 year.
You were doing with your so well until you mentioned rape (well if you ignore the fact that For a middle class eprson canada is only 7 times more safe) ...
Yes South Africa is the highest , but it happens in poor communites. As a middle classed person for rape Australia is the 5th highest in the world and canada is the 7th.
you have only 0.04 % less chance of getting raped if you live there.
http://www.nationmaster.com/graph/cri_rap_percap-crime-rapes-per-capita
"Now when you are really realistic you will admit as a middle classed South African you're in the lowest risk group. The crime rate for you is much lower than 38/100 000. For whites it's about 8/100 000 in fact as they represent 10 percent of the population and are victims of only 2% of the violent crimes."
These stats are made up. There is no source for this. The races of victims of crime are not recorded. It is illigal to do so.
Check your facts rooster
The murder rate in Washington DC for 2007 was 30/100 000 not 38/100 000
"By the way , South Africa has now slipped down to 9th highest murder rate (of countries that have statistics ...most of africa does not). How many guesses until S.A.S stops saying "highest" ?"
Rooster, now you are guilty of cherry picking stats to support your argument.
Check that table very carefully.
oh...and by the way there is no way that if all of the third world reported statistics that south africa would even be close to the top for either rape or hiv. Our high rates in these phenomena as a testiment to the fact that we have rule of law , a police force , medical system and testing.
Wrong...there are people who keep track of every reported white murder (and it always makes the papers). you don't often see their stats published because they did not live up to their high expectation that they would be higher than the low numbers they found.
and what is wrong with that table ? Tell me ? What ?
I don't know which stats you have for Washington DC but I've seen ones as high as 38. It's not the only high state in the states where you all would live without question (and actually be in a much higher risk group than you curtrently are as whities).
Please note that the stats on nationmaster are more than 5 years old.
Not really applicable to today.
"Wrong...there are people who keep track of every reported white murder (and it always makes the papers). you don't often see their stats published because they did not live up to their high expectation that they would be higher than the low numbers they found."
Where are these stats? Tell me? Where?
"and what is wrong with that table ? Tell me ? What ?
Its a table representing homicide rates not murder rates and half of the countries ranked higher than SA are at war.
Are you serious ? What the fuck is the difference between homicide and murder ?
Half the countries are at war ? Bullshit. Half the countries at war aren't ven reporting any statistics or cerainly aren't reporting any accurately. Besides don't you muppets always throw the myth around about s.a being as bad as a war zone ?
and the bit about "might not reflect the overall violence in the society" goes for everyone...not just South Africa you selective thinking ignoramus.
"Are you serious ? What the fuck is the difference between homicide and murder ?"
Homicide is essentially broken down into 2 catagories: -
Criminal homicide (murder)
Murder is generally distinguished from other forms of homicide by the elements of malice aforethought and the lack of lawful justification.
Non-criminal homocide - (eg death in times of war,)
Where a state is engaged in a war with a legitimate casus belli, a soldier from one of the combatant states may lawfully kill a soldier in the army of the opposing state so long as that soldier has not surrendered. This principle is embedded in public international law and has been respected by most states around the world. Thus, if there is no formal declaration of war or the casus belli is not legitimate, all those who engage in the fighting and kill combatants could theoretically be prosecuted. Otherwise, protecting the national interest against external aggressors will be considered an excuse on utilitarian grounds, i.e. the greatest public good will be derived from the defeat of the enemy.
Of the eight countries ranked higher than SA in the tabel the following have been at war (civil and non-civil) since 2000
Iraq war 2002 to present
Sierra Leone - About 50 000 people wee killed in the civil war which ended in 2002. Note that this is the only year (2002) in which homicide figures were presented on your table for Sierra Leone. There are no figures for the other 7 years. A Special Court for Sierra Leone was set up in 2002 to deal with war crimes and crimes against humanity.
Angolan civil war only ended in 2002. Note that this is the only year (2002) in which homicide figures were presented on your table for Angola. There are no figures for the other 7 years.
There are also no figues for the following countries for 2007.
Venezuela
El salvador
Jamaica
Guatemala
Given these factors this table is completely skewed and inaccurate.
In closing: -
As usual rooster these debates start off civil enough with you, but sooner or later you resort to juvenile profanity and name calling. I suspect you do this to cover your insecurity and lack of fabric to your argument. I suggest you need to learn a little restraint and a few good manners.
Peace and Love, Rooster. Peace and Love.
PS: there was a suggestion earlier to source good news stories and post them. I think that is a great idea.
No the name calling is because that you are saying is stupid.
Let's check for bullshit.
These countries are higher than S.a are at war ? Check.
Murder is murder. Only Iraq is at war. The angolan civil war ended in 1991.
http://www.onwar.com/aced/data/alpha/angola1975.htm
The sierre lionne civil war conflict started in 1991 and ended with a cease fire in may 2000.
There are no figures for those countries in 2007 ? So what ? They are likely higher then. There are no figures for many countries ...by not reporting south African figures we could slip off the list and claim we are not a violent country ? Total bullshit. The fact that so many countrie don't report their stats means we would likely mov down the list significantly if they did. Notice how more than half of Africa does not report stats ?
The same can be said for hiv/rape.
So the table is skewed and inaacurate ? Really ? Why no such questioning of the table by all you idiots when it rated us number 1 ? Oh then you believed t's every word. What bullshit.
Making unsubstantiated claims is stupid.
"Now when you are really realistic you will admit as a middle classed South African you're in the lowest risk group. The crime rate for you is much lower than 38/100 000. For whites it's about 8/100 000 in fact as they represent 10 percent of the population and are victims of only 2% of the violent crimes."
""These stats are made up. There is no source for this.""
"Wrong...there are people who keep track of every reported white murder (and it always makes the papers). you don't often see their stats published because they did not live up to their high expectation that they would be higher than the low numbers they found."
Rooster - Where are these stats? Tell me?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Angolan_Civil_War
The Angolan Civil War began in Angola after the end of the war for independence from Portugal in 1975. The war featured conflict between two primary Angolan factions, the Communist MPLA and the anti-Communist UNITA. FLEC, an association of separatist militant groups, fought for the independence of Cabinda.
Formally brought to an end in 2002, an estimated 500,000 people were killed in the 27-year war
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sierra_Leone
Between 1991 and 2001, about 50,000 people were killed in Sierra Leone's civil war. Hundreds of thousands of people were forced from their homes, and many became refugees in Guinea and Liberia. In 2001, UN forces moved into rebel-held areas and began to disarm rebel soldiers. By January 2002, the war was declared over.
"Why no such questioning of the table by all you idiots when it rated us number 1"
Because this table is about homicide rate you cannot just convert that to murder rate at your whim.
Thats the problem - You dont do research. You don't back up your claims. You pull "facts & figures" out of thin air to suit your argument.
What little research you do, - you don't read it correctly and quite frankly you don't intepret the information correctly.
You cannot fudge forever and not get caught out. Which is what seems to be happening with alarming frequency of late.
P & L
Both wars stopped before 2002 , the year the stats were taken. You're "stretching out the wars far more than the history books to even drag them to 2001. Go read up people , you're welcome. I went to wikipedia myself to determine when the wars ended. you're complaining about 2 countries who you suggest have high murder rates because they had wars years before the figures were taken....but make no mention of the countries at war who have no reported stats and who would push us even further down the list. That again is cherry picking.
Besides it was always you idiots who argues "south africa is more dangerous than a war zone !" (before there were even stats released) ..and now you feel upset because it isn't when the stats are shown ? What total fucking selective crap !
Again no mention that most of africa reports no stats and that they would mostly be higher than ours. If You want to cherry pic the stats now because it shows our murder rate is lower , then I could play it too and show how 9 is far too high for us by selectively interpreteing the stats.
You didn't interpret them when they claimed we were number 1...you all just accepted them\ and shouted about them " LOOK UNDENIABLE PROOf"...then when i use the same stats and you don't like it suddenly " OH NO ..THESE ARE NOT VALID"
Pull the other fucking one matey.
And homocide = murder ...don't try pull that bullshit. It won't fly.
My point is that there was zero outcry about the stats when they claimed we were number 1. Now because our murder rate has gone down from 60 to 38 per 100 000 and it goes down , there is a great fight to prove it isn't the case.
What hope can there be when even in the face of hard stats you fucks won't even admit the blatantly obvious? Why do you cling so deperately to the dream od south africa being a murderous hellhole ?
Reall..stop and think about that. Why does it bother you that crime in south Africa is going down ? Are you....a sadist ? Do you get off on the pain and suffering of your own country men ? Are you a snuff addict ? What the fuck is wrong with you ?
All murder is homocide but
not all homocide is murder.
Get it right Rooster.
I'd be happy if the murder rate came down.
But you cannot use stats of homocide rates and say its murder.
No matter how hard you try to argue that point, It just isn't.
Now move on.
look on the first post ..i responed.
Homocide rate = murder rate...there is no difference at all , jst a different name.
The homocide rate in south africa is 38/100 000 ....exactly the same as the murder rate ..38/100 000....this is not coincedence...this is because they are the same thing.
Really boetie...this is not difficuly stuff.
Maybe this will make things clearer for you
Official SAPS stats show murder as one figure and have a seperate figure for other homocides
EG: Murders in SA 2007:- 18487
Other homicides in SA 2007:- 13184
Total homocides = 31671
/ 47 000 000 x 100 000 =
67.4 homocides p/100 000 for SA 2007
Now apply these figures from the official SAPS stats for the same period to the dates of the homocides rate table you provided
2000 - 68.9
2001 - 68.8
2002 - 69.7
2003 - 65.8
2004 - 65.5
2005 - 65.8
2006 - 68.2
2007 - 67.4
Ave 67.5 homocides p / 100 000
Therefore new ranking puts SA 2nd
Further to this if you go to the table you provided it clearly states that the figures provided for SA are for murder only. They have not included other homocide figures. The other countries have provided total homocide figures.
Check the references at the end of that table page.
http://www.iraqbodycount.org/analysis/numbers/2007/
http://www.unodc.org/documents/data-and-analysis/Caribbean-study-en.pdf
Go back to the the stat and look at the heading of the page ...it specifically says
"List of countries by intentional homicide rate"
It's like i'm at the center of a bukkake of stupid.
Can't you read ? There are 38 murders for every 100 000 people in South Africa.
In Australia there are 1.28.
So you have about 15 times less chance of getting murdered in Australia. But if you're a white South Africa you have only 4 times less chance (from a low baseline of almost no chance to begin with).
With you move to a country because you had less chance of dying in a car crash ? You are 20 times more likely to die in a car crash than be murdered in South Africa.
We're talking about the difference between almost no chance at all and...well....almost no chance at all.
But really...if you can't handle or assimulate that then fuck off to Australia. I'll even drive you to the airport. Good riddance.
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